Maybe we should just elect Trump president

[gavroche]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .what do you expect? Bernie failed because he couldn't get a black person to vote for him....


the question to me isn't whether Hillary should have been the candidate or not.... I think she won the primaries... a few things like somebody telling Hillary a debate question did not determine the outcomes..

the question is whether Hillary erred big time in not picking Bernie to be her VP...we don't know the behind the scenes... but there was a point..before NY / Northeast primaries where Bernie seemed to be toning down his message and preparing for an exit...then after NY and all those primaries where he got clobbered he suddenly was "I"m going to the end.."

MY theory is that Bernie wanted and felt he was owed the VP and when Hillary told him it wasn't going to happen is when it got ugly.. that really hurt Hillary - and an earlier end before it got so ugly and Bernie gave Trump his talking points or at least validated them- with  Bernie being on the ticket would have resonated more with at least some of the voters that ended up going with Trump...

we may someday know what happened.. why did Bernie get so damn belligerent? To the point where his campaign argued that even with less delegates or votes he should be selected? I found his behavior atrocious and by the end I didn't want to see or hear from him again.

In the end, although I celebrated the Kaine selection with the failure at hand I have to second guess myself... even a Sherrod Brown (is that his name..the dude from OH) might have been better....

I don't get all the criticism for Hillary.. she worked her ass off.. nothing was handed to her at all! she campaigned her heart out.. she worked hard and beat him in all three debates.. the voters just didn't want to hear it...a lot of things we had no way to predict would happen when the primaries were going on.. the wikileaks.. Comey setting up Hillary....I don't know... I also don't know that Bernie would have won....I didn't think he could during the primaries....but you can't predict hypotheticals....

I think at the end of the day the American people just fucked up big time... that is what it comes down to... they elected an unqualified racist, bigot, sexist pig sack of shit over a tough as nails qualilfied lifetime public servant who knows the job of President better than anyone.. I think this election proves that a whole lot of Americans are deplorables.. sorry to say...


and I hope Trump does a good job.. I wish nothing but the best for the USA which I love.. but he will never be my president... making fun of the disabled is a disqualifier for me... there is no going back for me.

I enjoyed reading this but I disagree with a couple of things here.  

Bernie got more aggressive with Hillary because Hillary and her surrogates took off the gloves with him. He was always planning to go the distance and never expected to be VP.  When John Lewis attacked Bernie Sanders on his Civil Rights record it was pretty low.

Even with that little bit of a rough spot Bernie mostly pulled his punches with Hillary and in the end it didn't do either of them any favors.  The best example was the emails.  She would have been way better off if that story had been over with and people were tired of it by the summer.  Instead it was largely fresh for the Republicans to use.  Same thing with the foundation.

Clinton might have campaigned hard but it wasn't an effective campaign.  She was horrible about expressing her vision or what she would do that was popular.  It was at best vaguely more Obama, but without the charisma.  And then at the end she got conservative and made the entire election a choice of personality with Trump.  For many of us this was a clear choice.  But Hillary isn't particularly popular herself and she is a consummate insider.  A lot of people decided they would prefer Trump's flaws to more of the same.

The Democratic nomination was definitely handed to HRC.  The field was cleared and Wasserman-Shultz, Donna Brazile and the rest of the party was clearly working for her.  I understand why, but it definitely led to the feeling that she was anointed rather than elected. This too chummy with the Democratic elite stuff ended up biting them in the ass.  The tarmac meeting with Lynch put the Justice Department in a huge bind.

[gavroche]

Yes, it is amazing that the Democratic National Party wasn't predisposed toward non-Democrat, Socialist Bernie Sanders, whose campaign pledges were just as vague and non-realistic as Trump's. My heart is with Bernie. I agree with much of what he said and I would have loved to see him win the nom and become president. But none of what he said and how he said it had any basis in a reality where the GOP controls the House and is not inclined to move in any way on anything coming from a Democratic White House.

This is of course right.  And the Democratic party came together to support HRC.  And in most years she would have beaten Trump.  But after years of the Republicans eroding faith in government it was an election for outsiders and the R's let one win their primary (or couldn't stop it at least).

[chaz]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"Oh aren't you cute, but you don't really understand how this thing works do you?"

I know how it works.  And we deserve better.

I am honestly shocked at the degree to which people are not holding the Democratic party accountable for this absolutely historic and epic meltdown.

[Space Freely]

Some sickening behavior here:

http://www.tmz.com/2016/11/10/trump-supporter-beat-up-chicago-fight/

[Space Freely]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"Oh aren't you cute, but you don't really understand how this thing works do you?"

I know how it works.  And we deserve better.

I am honestly shocked at the degree to which people are not holding the Democratic party accountable for this absolutely historic and epic meltdown.

+1  learn from your mistakes or it's going to be eight years of Trump.

[hutch]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"Oh aren't you cute, but you don't really understand how this thing works do you?"

I know how it works.  And we deserve better.

I am honestly shocked at the degree to which people are not holding the Democratic party accountable for this absolutely historic and epic meltdown.

but Chaz it is a political party NOT the same as a national election..its a party election .. of course the consummate party insider is going to have an advantage over a guy that just joined the party right before the party election..

I am shocked that you are holding the democratic party responsible for the American people voting for Donald Trump.. its rather weird.. shouldn't you be holding the voters accountable or isn't this a democracy?

[Space Freely]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"Oh aren't you cute, but you don't really understand how this thing works do you?"

I know how it works.  And we deserve better.

I am honestly shocked at the degree to which people are not holding the Democratic party accountable for this absolutely historic and epic meltdown.

but Chaz it is a political party NOT the same as a national election..its a party election .. of course the consummate party insider is going to have an advantage over a guy that just joined the party right before the party election..

I am shocked that you are holding the democratic party responsible for the American people voting for Donald Trump.. its rather weird.. shouldn't you be holding the voters accountable or isn't this a democracy?

Um, hello, it's 2008 on the phone. He wants to have a word with you.

[hutch]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"Oh aren't you cute, but you don't really understand how this thing works do you?"

I know how it works.  And we deserve better.

I am honestly shocked at the degree to which people are not holding the Democratic party accountable for this absolutely historic and epic meltdown.

+1  learn from your mistakes or it's going to be eight years of Trump.

People selected Hillary not the party.. they had primaries and caucuses.. lots and lots of them.. Hillary won some and Bernie won some... millions of people voted.. they had many many debates... Hillary won every single one as she always has.. she also beat Obama in every one and Trump in every one...so its not saying Bernie is a bad guy or something.. but in the end a lot of black people, women, older voters and latinos

[hutch]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"Oh aren't you cute, but you don't really understand how this thing works do you?"

I know how it works.  And we deserve better.

I am honestly shocked at the degree to which people are not holding the Democratic party accountable for this absolutely historic and epic meltdown.

but Chaz it is a political party NOT the same as a national election..its a party election .. of course the consummate party insider is going to have an advantage over a guy that just joined the party right before the party election..

I am shocked that you are holding the democratic party responsible for the American people voting for Donald Trump.. its rather weird.. shouldn't you be holding the voters accountable or isn't this a democracy?

Um, hello, it's 2008 on the phone. He wants to have a word with you.

I agree. .which is why Obama's victory was such a huge deal.. because he did MORE than her to win.. Bernie did not... the way I look at it its like a boxing fight.. you know how the tie goes to the defending champion..well its the same here. .the challenger has to do more... maybe its not entirely fair but its just the way it is.. Obama did do more than Hillary and he got the nomination.. Bernie simply did not.. not getting any African Americans to vote for him meant he just wasn't going to get the nod...

[hutch]

anyways this is so played out... the vitriol by Berniers , not on this board but that I saw on the net, really really ticked me off.. they really set the table for Trump.... the shit people were tweeting me about Hillary during the primaries paled in comparison to what Trumptards said later on....

[hutch]

yawn.. the Bernie argument.. so over it.. really people its called politics.. of course the DNC did what it could to have Hillary be the candidate. .what do you expect? Bernie failed because he couldn't get a black person to vote for him....


the question to me isn't whether Hillary should have been the candidate or not.... I think she won the primaries... a few things like somebody telling Hillary a debate question did not determine the outcomes..

the question is whether Hillary erred big time in not picking Bernie to be her VP...we don't know the behind the scenes... but there was a point..before NY / Northeast primaries where Bernie seemed to be toning down his message and preparing for an exit...then after NY and all those primaries where he got clobbered he suddenly was "I"m going to the end.."

MY theory is that Bernie wanted and felt he was owed the VP and when Hillary told him it wasn't going to happen is when it got ugly.. that really hurt Hillary - and an earlier end before it got so ugly and Bernie gave Trump his talking points or at least validated them- with  Bernie being on the ticket would have resonated more with at least some of the voters that ended up going with Trump...

we may someday know what happened.. why did Bernie get so damn belligerent? To the point where his campaign argued that even with less delegates or votes he should be selected? I found his behavior atrocious and by the end I didn't want to see or hear from him again.

In the end, although I celebrated the Kaine selection with the failure at hand I have to second guess myself... even a Sherrod Brown (is that his name..the dude from OH) might have been better....

I don't get all the criticism for Hillary.. she worked her ass off.. nothing was handed to her at all! she campaigned her heart out.. she worked hard and beat him in all three debates.. the voters just didn't want to hear it...a lot of things we had no way to predict would happen when the primaries were going on.. the wikileaks.. Comey setting up Hillary....I don't know... I also don't know that Bernie would have won....I didn't think he could during the primaries....but you can't predict hypotheticals....

I think at the end of the day the American people just fucked up big time... that is what it comes down to... they elected an unqualified racist, bigot, sexist pig sack of shit over a tough as nails qualilfied lifetime public servant who knows the job of President better than anyone.. I think this election proves that a whole lot of Americans are deplorables.. sorry to say...


and I hope Trump does a good job.. I wish nothing but the best for the USA which I love.. but he will never be my president... making fun of the disabled is a disqualifier for me... there is no going back for me.

I enjoyed reading this but I disagree with a couple of things here.  

Bernie got more aggressive with Hillary because Hillary and her surrogates took off the gloves with him. He was always planning to go the distance and never expected to be VP.  When John Lewis attacked Bernie Sanders on his Civil Rights record it was pretty low.

Even with that little bit of a rough spot Bernie mostly pulled his punches with Hillary and in the end it didn't do him any favors.  The best example was the emails.  She would have been way better off if that story had been over with and people were tired of it by the summer.  Instead it was largely fresh for the Republicans to use.  Same thing with the foundation.

Clinton might have campaigned hard but it wasn't an effective campaign.  She was horrible about expressing her vision or what she would do that was popular.  It was at best vaguely more Obama, but without the charisma.  And then at the end she got conservative and made the entire election a choice of personality with Trump.  For many of us this was a clear choice.  But Hillary isn't particularly popular herself and she is a consummate insider.  A lot of people decided they would prefer Trump's flaws to more of the same.

The Democratic nomination was definitely handed to HRC.  The field was cleared and Wasserman-Shultz, Donna Brazile and the rest of the party was clearly working for her.  I understand why, but it definitely led to the feeling that she was anointed rather than elected. This too chummy with the Democratic elite stuff ended up biting them in the ass.  The tarmac meeting with Lynch put the Justice Department in a huge bind.

I think you're one of the most thoughtful posters on the board and I always enjoy reading your posts.

I hear what you're saying.. I guess we disagree on a few things!

For example, you say Bernie was definitely always going to the end.. but that is the same stuff they always say.. everyone says that... it does not mean that was always their intention.. I actually think a lot of the problems stemmed from that comic book store owner of the shop a mile from me.. luckily I have blacked out his name.. he was very hardcore.. anyways, now Bernie supporters want him as candidate in 2020.. really? he will be like what 900 years old???

[hutch]

anyways.. to quote a great failed candidate "At this point what difference does it make?"

[Space Freely]

Though I admit I didn't make it all the way through this article (yet), it's a good one:

The smug style in American liberalism

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

[chaz]

anyways this is so played out... the vitriol by Berniers , not on this board but that I saw on the net, really really ticked me off.. they really set the table for Trump.... the shit people were tweeting me about Hillary during the primaries paled in comparison to what Trumptards said later on....

Despite the fact that I don't particularly like her I still wanted her to win.  And on point you make above I totally agree with you....all that negativity hurt her badly.  I got completely tired of hearing it and it played right into Trumps hands.  While I may have agreed with some of the rhetoric behind it I found it to be totally counterproductive.  It all sounded  childish to me. 

But I do believe it was a mess of their own making.   I find it hard to imagine a scenario where Bernie could have gotten the nomination, but he had a massive groundswell  of incredibly passionate support.  And at the conclusion of the primary no effort was made to connect with these millions of people.  If there was one I sure didn't see it.  Except throwing in the occasional statement about making college more affordable.

In my opinion, they blew it hard.  They thought way too much of themselves.  I always thought of the perceived cultural elitism of the Democratic party to be somewhat of a farce.  But certainly in the days following this election I'm seeing it.  Maybe it was always there and I didn't want to recognize it, but I do now.  In fact it's right here in this thread.

[hutch]

What is cultural elitism exactly?


yeah thats the problem. cultural elitism.. not the fact Trump is a racist sexist bigoted lyin' sack of shit....or that like 65 million Americans voted for a guy who makes fun of the disabled for shits and giggles..