Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever

[thirsty moore]

He's also said that he won't cut and run.  I missed last night, but I haven't heard a clear response out of him.  
 
 

Originally posted by Deepak Chopra:
  Kerry said that he will let the Iraquis know he plans on leaving ASAP and that he wont leave behind 14 military bases.
 
 So that would be a clear difference.

[Random Citizen]

For those who missed the debate, you can watch it on C-SPAN.org. It's the top feature on the page.

[Venerable Bede]

Originally posted by Deepak Chopra:
  Kerry said that he will let the Iraquis know he plans on leaving ASAP and that he wont leave behind 14 military bases.
 
 So that would be a clear difference.

i believe bush stated something similiar about when he'd leave. . .when the iraqi army/police is sufficiently trained and able to provide protection, then the u.s. would leave.  whereas kerry, at one point or another, has not stated under what conditions he would bring the troops home, only that he would.
 
 not like my vote really matters anyway, i live in d.c.  

[grotty]

Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
   

Originally posted by grotty:
 
 He never once laid out EVEN one concrete plan for how he is going to fix Iraq last night. Even though Kerry repeatedly did so.
 

kerry did?  other than holding a conference with "other nations," what did he say?  oh, hold a conference, get nations together, and ask them for help.  oooh.  i really wonder how many nations will indeed help, just because someone new is in there, especially when you have certain governments that have already stated their opposition to any involvement in iraq.  course, their help will be on their terms. . .
 
 having said that. . .kerry did a better job than bush in the debate, but i do not agree with his policies and will not vote for him. [/b]

Here's a summary of Kerry's plan when asked When Will the War in Iraq End?:
 
 "...if we do the things that I've set out and we are successful, we could begin to draw the troops down in six months."
 
 "I think a critical component of success in Iraq is being able to convince the Iraqis and the Arab world that the United States doesn't have long-term designs on it."
 
 "You have to close the borders."
 
 "I will make a flat statement: The United States of America has no long-term designs on staying in Iraq."
 
 "we're going to win the peace, by rapidly training the Iraqis themselves."
 
 ____________________________
 
 Now here's Bush "plan" in the context of the same question:
 
 "It's hard work. Everybody knows it's hard work, because there's a determined enemy that's trying to defeat us."
 
 "You can't change the dynamics on the ground if you've criticized the brave leader of Iraq."
 
 "The way to make sure that we succeed is to send consistent, sound messages"
 
 _____________________________
 
 
 You don't see a difference there? Politicians in general do a lot of filibustering, but at least Kerry made concrete statements - Such as: We will close the borders. Bush didn't even come close. The only logical reason I can assume then is because he does not know what to do. As he has shown.

[thirsty moore]

Please, you think these are ideas created by Kerry or Bush?  That's what their staff is for.  You're not voting for the President, you're voting for who's staffing them.

[grotty]

Originally posted by econo:
  Please, you think these are ideas created by Kerry or Bush?  That's what their staff is for.  You're not voting for the President, you're voting for who's staffing them.

True. But isn't that always the case? and if so, why ever go through the motions?
 
 What should we do then: Just appoint someone?  eliminate the position of President?

[Venerable Bede]

Originally posted by grotty:
   

Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
     

Originally posted by grotty:
 
 He never once laid out EVEN one concrete plan for how he is going to fix Iraq last night. Even though Kerry repeatedly did so.
 

kerry did?  other than holding a conference with "other nations," what did he say?  oh, hold a conference, get nations together, and ask them for help.  oooh.  i really wonder how many nations will indeed help, just because someone new is in there, especially when you have certain governments that have already stated their opposition to any involvement in iraq.  course, their help will be on their terms. . .
 
 having said that. . .kerry did a better job than bush in the debate, but i do not agree with his policies and will not vote for him. [/b]

Here's a summary of Kerry's plan when asked When Will the War in Iraq End?:
 
 "...if we do the things that I've set out and we are successful, we could begin to draw the troops down in six months."
 
 "I think a critical component of success in Iraq is being able to convince the Iraqis and the Arab world that the United States doesn't have long-term designs on it."
 
 "You have to close the borders."
 
 "I will make a flat statement: The United States of America has no long-term designs on staying in Iraq."
 
 "we're going to win the peace, by rapidly training the Iraqis themselves."
 
 ____________________________
 
 Now here's Bush "plan" in the context of the same question:
 
 "It's hard work. Everybody knows it's hard work, because there's a determined enemy that's trying to defeat us."
 
 "You can't change the dynamics on the ground if you've criticized the brave leader of Iraq."
 
 "The way to make sure that we succeed is to send consistent, sound messages"
 
 _____________________________
 
 
 You don't see a difference there? Politicians in general do a lot of filibustering, but at least Kerry made concrete statements - Such as: We will close the borders. Bush didn't even come close. The only logical reason I can assume then is because he does not know what to do. As he has shown. [/b]

so. . kerry will do mostly talking and no action?  that first statement, "if we do the things i've set out," then you said what he said. . .making statements as the winds blow, oh, and train the iraqi's.  great. . .talk talk talk, promise promise promise. . .does that really accomplish or mean anything?  so, if we're able to close the borders, make a bunch of statements and promises, we'll be outta there in 6 months.  great. . .any idea on how long it'll take to close the borders?  
 
 anyway, your selection of quotes doesn't even discuss the international conference that he's proposed on iraq so he can get international approval on what america can do.

[Arthwys]

Bush definitely failed to give us any plan at all regarding Iraq other than "hard work", and I think that was his biggest mistake in the whole debate.  Made it look like he doesn't have a plan at all.  Which i'm sure democrats will agree with, lol.  But econo is right, the president is "in charge" and "the leader" in most all of this stuff, but in reality he has loads of staff that are smart specialists in foreign policy and military matters, as opposed to shady politicians who until 4 years ago didn't know jack about the world outside of texas.  So I'm not surprised that neither Kerry nor Bush were very illuminating on the subject of a plan.  Another thing to think about.  This is a public debate with only 2 minute answers.  It's something set up to make people vote for you.  They aren't about to actually spend the time explaining logistics and detail.  Last night was about appearances first, content second.  Don't know if anyone else noticed, but the last 5 seconds was always spent on some rousing patriotic statement that may or may not have any bearing to the previous minute and 55 seconds, something like "A free Iraq makes a safer world." or "I will make America safer."
 
 btw, i'm republican college student and listen to indie rock  

[markie]

last time I looked Kerry was not the president. Therefore all he can do is promise things.   :roll:  
 
 Promising to not leave behind a large U.S. presence in Iraq is a big deal.
 
 Right now it looks like America may be on the verge of building an empire, do you want that?

[Arthwys]

Oh, and something else that i just remembered, I really liked Bush's jibe at Kerry about...."i don't know how he plans on paying for all that.."
 
 That's just it...i'm sure our government could accomplish a whole heck of a lot if we gave it more powers and loads more money.  Only thing is, there's many of us around that don't want to live with that kind of pervasive government presence in our lives.

[grotty]

Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
 
 anyway, your selection of quotes doesn't even discuss the international conference that he's proposed on iraq so he can get international approval on what america can do.

You had already mentioned it and discounted it. Why bring it up again?
 
 How can you write-off the ideas of someone who wants to make changes, yet ignore the fact that the one person who actually is in a position to make changes has no ideas at all?

[ratioci nation]

Originally posted by econo:
  Please, you think these are ideas created by Kerry or Bush?  That's what their staff is for.  You're not voting for the President, you're voting for who's staffing them.

So what is your point of view here?  Were you expecting to have a candidate that gave you actual plans.  No candidate ever does that, they dont need to.  I know you probably dont support Bush, but you have been more critical of Kerry on this thread.  You voting Nader?

[ggw]

Originally posted by Deepak Chopra:
  Right now it looks like America may be on the verge of building an empire.

Huh?

[ratioci nation]

Originally posted by Arthwys:
  Only thing is, there's many of us around that don't want to live with that kind of pervasive government presence in our lives.

You aren't getting that with Bush?  His response about money was anothe childish, "Oh Yeah" remark.  Bush gives no concrete facts either.

[Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer]

Wow, an empire would be pretty cool.
 
 

Originally posted by Deepak Chopra:
  last time I looked Kerry was not the president. Therefore all he can do is promise things.    :roll:  
 
 Promising to not leave behind a large U.S. presence in Iraq is a big deal.
 
 Right now it looks like America may be on the verge of building an empire, do you want that?