Author Topic: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's  (Read 36192 times)

Sir HC

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2004, 09:40:00 am »
First, many of those in the pictures were not POWs or even common criminals.  Just people picked up off the street and not charged with anything.  When they would do those sweeps and pull all 18-25 year old men off the street, well this is what was sometimes happening.
 
 Next, we went their claiming to be the moral bright light that would do no sadistic torture unlike Saddam.  There are supposedly photos of people beaten badly, and other abuses.  This is not what you do if you want the moral high ground.  Why did it happen, because from the top down there were no rules.  Rummy said we would not follow the Geneva conventions with these people but would treat them humanely.  Vague at best, and given that the guards didn't have any rules there, they just probably were following orders.
 
 The prisons were put in sexually compromising positions with women often in the pictures.  In that part of the world, modesty is very high, and having the double insult of nakedness and a woman with a dog collar around your neck is seen as something much worse than what we see it as.
 
 In the end we are losing all of are reasons to be there:
 
 WMD - Not there
 Toture and abuse - whoops, losing out now
 ???
 
 You have to assume that if 6 people were dumb enough to photograph their actions, there are probably 10x or more who didn't take pictures.  It seems that the British photos were staged, possibly for money, but the American ones definitely not.  
 
 We are losing in Iraq, we backed out of Fallujah without taking it, we are giving control of the millitary back to Baathists, we are having to get tens of billions more for the current year and for all the future, we won the battles but are losing the war.

ratioci nation

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2004, 09:40:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  That we should hold our soldiers to a higher standard than the rest of the soldiers in the world speak to America's "We are better than everyone else" arrogance, doesn't it?
not at all, and I don't think that expecting soldiers not to stack prisoners in a naked human pyramid would be exclusive to the US, the question is why should we lower the standards, if we are going to use military might to spread our "way of life", i think it should be expected that soldiers practice the values our leaders claim to believe in

markie

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2004, 09:45:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  it's easy for us to say how awful the abuses are, sitting at our computers, fucking around at work...I think the vast majority of us have NO IDEA the shit that goes down in situations like this...yes, it's bad, yes, our officials need to publicly denounce these abuses...but all we little office workers, hipsters, journalists, civilians shouldn't trumpet so loudly about how awful those soldiers are or how awful the U.S. military is, because we don't have a clue...
I actually tended to agree with you before this post, that perhaps the atrocities were not that atrocious. The captives were not being physically harmed, just humiliated. I don't condone it and I still think it is very wrong, but it could have been much worse.
 
 But the much worse argument is a very poor one, really. If Iraqi soldiers see American soldiers treat their colleagues badly, how do you think they will treat captured Americans? There are certain standards on how to treat prisoners. These have to be upheld.
 
 America is meant to be saving these people from tyranny, not just supplanting one tyrannt for another.

ratioci nation

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2004, 09:46:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  it's easy for us to say how awful the abuses are, sitting at our computers, fucking around at work...I think the vast majority of us have NO IDEA the shit that goes down in situations like this...yes, it's bad, yes, our officials need to publicly denounce these abuses...but all we little office workers, hipsters, journalists, civilians shouldn't trumpet so loudly about how awful those soldiers are or how awful the U.S. military is, because we don't have a clue...
that is ridiculous, who here is trumpeting loudly, we are on a message board that maybe 50 people will read today, and why shouldn't people say anything, our officials would not have publicly denounced anything had journalists not said anything

godsshoeshine

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2004, 09:46:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  it's easy for us to say how awful the abuses are, sitting at our computers, fucking around at work...I think the vast majority of us have NO IDEA the shit that goes down in situations like this...yes, it's bad, yes, our officials need to publicly denounce these abuses...but all we little office workers, hipsters, journalists, civilians shouldn't trumpet so loudly about how awful those soldiers are or how awful the U.S. military is, because we don't have a clue...
the military answers to the president, who answers to us. of course our opinion means something. we are there to liberate these people, this is their first experience with democracy. our friends, neighbors and relatives are over there, and if the actions of a few mps are going to create more violence and endanger more american lives, yes i'm going to get mad. and what do the people that get caught get? discharged, which means they get to go home to their families while the people that do their job get to be human targets.
o/\o

Celeste

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2004, 09:46:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
  if we are going to use military might to spread our "way of life"
if that's the strategy, that's a real problem...you may have an interesting aside here...shouldn't we shower them with junk food, pop music, ballot boxes and shit like that to spread our way of life? I guess the factions of fundamentalists kind of make that hard...I wonder if the majority of people there even WANT a Western, Capitalist way of life or if they are more into their religion? if they don't want it, why can't we leave them alone?
 
 ISRAEL...that's why...
 
 there was a really interesting article about Zionism in the National Journal (written by a Jew) that further convinced me that it would be great if we could cut Israel loose...
 
 of course, we're in too deep now...
 
 sorry, I'm rambling

Celeste

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2004, 09:50:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
 that is ridiculous, who here is trumpeting loudly, we are on a message board that maybe 50 people will read today, and why shouldn't people say anything, our officials would not have publicly denounced anything had journalists not said anything
say what you want, but I think lots of people, especially journalists (especially those calling for Rummy's resignation, etc.)are going on too much about it...the media has the power to spin things however they want, and they are really doing a number spinning this one...
 
 maybe they're trying to take attention away from other stuff going on

ratioci nation

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2004, 09:55:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  say what you want, but I think lots of people, especially journalists (especially those calling for Rummy's resignation, etc.)are going on too much about it...the media has the power to spin things however they want, and they are really doing a number spinning this one...
 
 maybe they're trying to take attention away from other stuff going on
I wasn't aware journalists were calling for his resignation, that was started by a Dem Senator, but I have actually said what I wanted to say, I have to get some work done, otherwise I will bleet on all morning

Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2004, 09:58:00 am »
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/8604332.htm?1c
 
 I believe the NT Times also called for his resignation.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  say what you want, but I think lots of people, especially journalists (especially those calling for Rummy's resignation, etc.)are going on too much about it...the media has the power to spin things however they want, and they are really doing a number spinning this one...
 
 maybe they're trying to take attention away from other stuff going on
I wasn't aware journalists were calling for his resignation, that was started by a Dem Senator, but I have actually said what I wanted to say, I have to get some work done, otherwise I will bleet on all morning [/b]

mankie

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2004, 10:06:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by mark e smith:
   
Quote
[/b]
Did you actually practice these techniques on captives? [/QB]
Yes.....our 'captives' were military aircrew from NATO member countries. Our job was to train them and prepare them for the possiblity of being taken prisoner by enemy forces. I can't go into the full details, but we did treat them very badly without physically injuring them. We did do the actions I described but under a very controlled environment, with medical personell on hand. After what they had been through for the previous 10 days, they really had no idea were they were, and the mind can play horrible games on you.
 
 The course was completely voluntary on the part of the aircrew, and believe me they were more prepared after completion.....the after course piss-up was attended by the crew only because they were not allowed to meet us. In the interrogation rooms the walls had soviet writings and the interrogation officers wore soviet uniforms. It was very real for the captives. Sometimes it would tear my heart when I could hear one sobbing like a baby while up against the wall waiting for his turn....it was tough on us too to have to do it to them, and we were only allowed to work one course per year because of the effect it had on us.
 
 Not fun, but I still feel very necessary and beneficial to the aircrew.

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2004, 10:09:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by SomethingMild:
 apologies for the length...?
I'll bet you tell your girlfriend that every time you jump between the sheets and she gets a good gander at how tiny it really is.

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2004, 10:14:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
   
Quote
Originally posted by mark e smith:
   
Quote
[/b]
Did you actually practice these techniques on captives? [/b]
Yes.....our 'captives' were military aircrew from NATO member countries. Our job was to train them and prepare them for the possiblity of being taken prisoner by enemy forces. I can't go into the full details, but we did treat them very badly without physically injuring them. We did do the actions I described but under a very controlled environment, with medical personell on hand. After what they had been through for the previous 10 days, they really had no idea were they were, and the mind can play horrible games on you.
 
 The course was completely voluntary on the part of the aircrew, and believe me they were more prepared after completion.....the after course piss-up was attended by the crew only because they were not allowed to meet us. In the interrogation rooms the walls had soviet writings and the interrogation officers wore soviet uniforms. It was very real for the captives. Sometimes it would tear my heart when I could hear one sobbing like a baby while up against the wall waiting for his turn....it was tough on us too to have to do it to them, and we were only allowed to work one course per year because of the effect it had on us.
 
 Not fun, but I still feel very necessary and beneficial to the aircrew. [/QB]
It sounds very much like what that Andy McNab fellow described going through as a part of his S.A.S. training...in the book
  Immediate Action.

Bags

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2004, 10:14:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  That we should hold our soldiers to a higher standard than the rest of the soldiers in the world speak to America's "We are better than everyone else" arrogance, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't.  We're not suggesting that we hold ourselves to a standard higher than many other nations in the world, but higher than the examples being bandied about in this discussion.  Alas, usually the countries we're FIGHTING are not of the more civilized ilk.  Shocking, I know -- maybe we will fight France or Canada one day, but it's not happening now...

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2004, 10:21:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
  maybe we will fight [..] Canada one day, but it's not happening now...
We already beat them once! Read a history book.

Bags

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Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2004, 10:24:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
  maybe we will fight [..] Canada one day, but it's not happening now...
We already beat them once! Read a history book. [/b]
So there's the example -- did they torture and abuse U.S. pows?  You tell us, board historian...how did our 'standards' of warfare compare?