Author Topic: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever  (Read 59859 times)

Barcelona

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #225 on: October 10, 2004, 09:07:00 pm »
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Originally posted by econo:
  Just because you're supporting the war in Iraq doesn't mean you're pro Bush.  
 
   
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Originally posted by Barcelona:
 I haven´t read articles by Friedman and Brooks lately, but Friedman supported the war in Irak ...
[/b]
I think that in 2003, if you supported the war in Irak, in that specific issue you were pro-Bush, especially given the little evidence available. This helped me made the point that the New York Times' editorials are not as liberal as to say that only one editorialist is sympathetic to the Republicans. I think the NYT'editorials over the Bush presidency have been pretty balanced.

hitman

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #226 on: October 11, 2004, 09:53:00 am »
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
   
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Originally posted by Barcelona:
 To me, The New York Times is one of the best newspapers in the world. You see it as anti-bush, I see it as an objective newspaper.
My point in saying "anti-Bush" is not to imply that the NY Times is not a fine paper.  I read it most days and have for years.  They are one of the few that still do a half-decent job of covering things outside the U.S.    
 
 The Op-ed pages are for just that -- Opinions and Editorials -- and if those opinions go against the Bush Administration, then they are "anti-Bush."  I'm not using the term in a derogatory sense, only a descriptive one.
 
 Friedman was in favor of action against Iraq, but he has also complained about Bush's actions and policies plenty of times (and supported Bush many times as well).
 
 As you noted in your other post, there are no less than three regular opinion columnists (and this doesn't even include the contributor articles and the formal editorials) who have been consistently and steadily critical of Bush since the day he took office.
 
 The opinion that the media overdid the patriotism in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 may very well be valid.  But to claim that there were no contrary opinions is ridiculous. [/b]
My comment was based more on the TV Media rather than those in print.  Let alone, I really wasn't meaning OpEds either.

Barcelona

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #227 on: October 11, 2004, 10:07:00 am »
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Originally posted by ggw™:
 
Quote
Originally posted by Barcelona:
 [qb]
 
 The opinion that the media overdid the patriotism in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 may very well be valid.  But to claim that there were no contrary opinions is ridiculous. [/b]
I remember that at the time of the September 11 attacks I was subscribed to the Washington Post. However, a couple of months after the attacks, I canceled the suscription, not a single criticism to Bush that I recall. Maybe the New York Times was more critical, but I can assure you that if it was, it wasn´t too much. I am sorry, but after Sept. 11, Bush introduced a doctrince that either you were with him or against him, Gob bless America, Axis of Evil and all this crap, a state of terror, it reminded me of the dictatorships in Spain and Latin America. I just don´t support that.

kosmo vinyl

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #228 on: October 11, 2004, 11:12:00 am »
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Originally posted by Ikarus:
 
 
 these are the issues important to me.   if you want your vote to count for something other than the status quo, consider the libertarian, green, or reform parties.  why put it to waste on either side of the same coin?
IMHO now is the time to organize a new party that would sit in the middle using the model of MoveOn, etc.  I don't expect this parties candidate ever to become president, but a well organized party can start placing candidates in school board, county government, state government, and hopefully the US house and senate.  This party dosen't need to hold a majority in any one location, just enough votes to create a block which has to be dealt with in order to get things done.
 
 Of course it's a huge uphill battle given the current enviroment where very few races are actually up for grabs.   Any legitmate party candidate is going to be attacked from both sides.   Where are they going to find a slate of candidates to run given most potential polticos are part of the two machines already.
 
 The most fustrating part of this is just how does a  party even start, it's just so daunting given the money and resources in place for the dems and repubs
T.Rex

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #229 on: October 11, 2004, 01:26:00 pm »
http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/11/news/newsmakers/sinclair_kerry/index.htm?cnn=yes
 
 Anti-Kerry film to air in prime-time
 Nation's largest TV chain orders all 62 stations to show movie without commercials next week.
 October 11, 2004: 12:40 PM EDT
 
 NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Sinclair Broadcast Group, owner of the largest chain of television stations in the nation, plans to air a documentary that accuses Sen. John Kerry of betraying American prisoners during the Vietnam War, a newspaper reported Monday.
 
 The network has ordered all 62 of its stations to air "Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal" without commercials in prime-time next week, the Washington Post said, just two weeks before the Nov. 2 election.
 
 Sinclair's television group, which includes affiliates of all the major networks, reaches nearly a quarter of all U.S. television households, according to the company's Web site. But the affiliates owned by the major television networks reach a larger percentage of U.S. homes because they are in the largest markets.
 
 A dozen of Sinclair's stations are in the critical swing states of Ohio, Florida, Iowa and Wisconsin.
 
 The company made news in April when it ordered seven of its ABC-affiliated stations not to air a "Nightline" segment that featured a reading of the names of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq; a Sinclair executive called that broadcast "contrary to the public interest."
 
 Calls to Sinclair by CNN/Money were not immediately returned Monday.
 
 Media Matters for America, a liberal watchdog group, has written a letter to Sinclair asking the company to cancel reported plans to air the film between now and the Nov. 2 election, the group said in a statement.
 
 "Sinclair's plan to air anti-Kerry propaganda before the election is an abuse of the public airwaves for what appears to be partisan political purposes," Media Matters CEO David Brock said in the letter.
 
 The letter warned Sinclair that its plan could constitute a violation of broadcast regulations requiring equal time for political candidates, as well as the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law, the group said.
 
 Sinclair's top executives include members of the controlling Smith family, who have been strong financial supporters of Bush's campaign, the Post said in its report.
 
 
 Sinclair executives have given nearly $68,000 in political contributions, 97 percent of it going to Republicans, since the beginning of the year, according to the Los Angeles Times.
 
 According to the report, "Stolen Honor" focuses on Kerry's antiwar testimony to Congress in 1971 and its effect on American POWs in Vietnam, and was produced independently of Sinclair.
 
 The anti-Kerry film states that the senator's testimony hurt the American war effort and undercut morale among the troops.
 
 Sinclair (SBGI: down $0.05 to $7.45, Research, Estimates) shares were little changed on Nasdaq Monday.

hitman

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #230 on: October 11, 2004, 02:06:00 pm »
They could just air it on FOX News.  They're fair and balanced...right?

ratioci nation

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thirsty moore

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #232 on: October 11, 2004, 03:13:00 pm »
The Greens have been trying to accomplish this for a little while now.  Especially locally.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
 IMHO now is the time to organize a new party that would sit in the middle using the model of MoveOn, etc.

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #233 on: October 11, 2004, 03:19:00 pm »
The reform party has also had success at getting candidates elected.

ggw

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #234 on: October 12, 2004, 11:02:00 am »
In the words of the Times Public Editor:
 
 Passion is a distorting lens that makes it hard to perceive the shape of things. Partisans will see the depredations committed against their man, but won't notice similar articles or headlines or photographs that may damage the other guy.

kosmo vinyl

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #235 on: October 12, 2004, 11:06:00 am »
so where do the greens and the reform party, whom i've never heard before, lie on the scale conservative, moderate, liberal scale.
T.Rex

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #236 on: October 12, 2004, 11:15:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  so where do the greens and the reform party, whom i've never heard before, lie on the scale conservative, moderate, liberal scale.
reform party = Ross Perot party, the original party of Jesse Ventura when he was elected

thirsty moore

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #237 on: October 12, 2004, 11:23:00 am »
And this is where I read your statement wrong.  I read your original statement as the need for a third party.  The Greens or Reform aren't really your middle of the road types.  That's more Democrat/Republican.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  so where do the greens and the reform party, whom i've never heard before, lie on the scale conservative, moderate, liberal scale.

Barcelona

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #238 on: October 12, 2004, 07:55:00 pm »
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041012/pl_afp/us_iraq_scholars&cid=1521&ncid=1480
 
 600 US scholars flunk Bush on foreign policy
 
 WASHINGTON (AFP) - The Iraq (news - web sites) war is the most misguided since Vietnam, benefits terrorists and is justified by false claims, said more than 650 foreign-policy specialists in a letter to President George W. Bush (news - web sites).
 
 "We're advising the administration, which is already in a deep hole, to stop digging," said Professor Richard Samuels of Massachusetts Institute of Technology (news - web sites).
 
 The letter was released by "Security Scholars for a Sensible Foreign Policy," a nonpartisan group.
 
 "The current American policy centered around the war in Iraq is the most misguided one since the Vietnam period, one which harms the cause of the struggle against extreme Islamist terrorists," the letter said.
 
 The experts said the war has distorted "public debate on foreign and national security policy (with) an emphasis on speculation instead of facts, on mythology instead of calculation and on misplaced moralizing over considerations of national interest."
 
 The letter applauded Bush for destroying Al-Qaeda bases in Afghanistan (news - web sites), but called the inability to capture or kill most Al-Qaeda fighters a "blunder," and said finding terrorists in Afghanistan was preempted by the war in Iraq.
 
 "Many of the justifications offered by the Bush administration for the war in Iraq have been proven untrue by credible studies, including by US government agencies," the experts said.
 
 "Even on moral grounds, the case for war was dubious: The war itself has killed over a thousand Americans and unknown thousands of Iraqis, and if the threat of civil war becomes reality, ordinary Iraqis could be even worse off than they were under Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).
 
 "The administration knew most of these facts and risks before the war, and could have discovered the others, but instead it played down, concealed or misrepresented them," they said.
 
 The scholars signing the letter are from more than 150 colleges and universities in 40 states. They include former Pentagon (news - web sites), State Department and National Security Council staff, as well as six of the last seven presidents of the American Political Science Association.
 
 "I think it is telling that so many specialists on international relations, who rarely agree on anything, are unified in their position on the high costs that the US is incurring from this war," said Professor Robert Keohane of Duke University.

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #239 on: October 13, 2004, 01:57:00 pm »
so will kerry use this tonight?
 
 http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041013-111643-9369r.htm
 
 For Kerry, Germany might go to Iraq
 
 Berlin, Germany, Oct. 13 (UPI) -- Germany has indicated it would possibly send troops to Iraq if Democrat Sen. John Kerry is elected U.S. president, the Financial Times said Wednesday.
 
 Defense Minister Peter Struck said the German government welcomed Kerry's proposal to convene an international conference on Iraq including countries that opposed the war if he were to win next month's election.
 
 Struck said it was "a very sensible proposal," and because of responsibilities Germany has taken on in Iraq, "would naturally justify our involvement in such a conference."
 
 Berlin is providing financial assistance to Iraq and training Iraqi troops and police officers in the United Arab Emirates. It also announced last month a shipment of 20 armored vehicles to the Iraqi military, as part of Berlin's increased involvement in NATO-led reconstruction efforts there.
 
 While Berlin has refused to comment on the outcome of the U.S. election, the newspaper said Struck's comments are significant as Kerry said he would try to draw in countries to work in Iraq that opposed the war, such as Germany and France.