Author Topic: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever  (Read 59861 times)

hitman

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #240 on: October 13, 2004, 02:00:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
  so will kerry use this tonight?
I doubt it, I thought tonight's debate was about domestic issues...or maybe I'm wrong...

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #241 on: October 13, 2004, 02:09:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by hitman:
  I doubt it, I thought tonight's debate was about domestic issues...or maybe I'm wrong...
i am sure we will hear about how lots of domestic programs are being neglected because of $200 billion in iraq, which by the way is 90% of the cost, oh and while we are on the topic, we also have 90% of the casualties
 
 response: need some wood?

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #242 on: October 13, 2004, 04:29:00 pm »
update
 
 http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/13/international/europe/13cnd-germ.html
 
 Germany Rejects Speculation That Iraq Policy May Change
 By RICHARD BERNSTEIN
 Published: October 13, 2004
 
 BERLIN, Oct. 13 - German officials today reaffirmed their policy of not contributing troops to the American-led coalition in Iraq and rejected speculation, prompted by a remark by the country's defense minister, that that policy might change in the foreseeable future.

ggw

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #243 on: October 13, 2004, 04:42:00 pm »
Germany = Flip Flopper

Barcelona

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #244 on: October 13, 2004, 04:59:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
  update
 
  http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/13/international/europe/13cnd-germ.html
 
 Germany Rejects Speculation That Iraq Policy May Change
 By RICHARD BERNSTEIN
 Published: October 13, 2004
 
 BERLIN, Oct. 13 - German officials today reaffirmed their policy of not contributing troops to the American-led coalition in Iraq and rejected speculation, prompted by a remark by the country's defense minister, that that policy might change in the foreseeable future.
If they do this just to avoid interfering with the US election, good for them. Actually, if this is the case, Republicans should learn from this and not stick with their policy of threatening latin american countries to stop aid funds or stop immigration policies as they have recently done in Bolivia or El Salvador. That would be a good lesson for Bush (and ironically his policy of bringing freedom and democracy to the rest of the world).

Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #245 on: October 13, 2004, 05:01:00 pm »
Better a Flip Flopper than a Fascist
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  Germany = Flip Flopper

palahniukkubrick

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #246 on: October 13, 2004, 09:03:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
  Better a Flip Flopper than a Fascist
 
   
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  Germany = Flip Flopper
[/b]
true.

palahniukkubrick

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #247 on: October 13, 2004, 09:05:00 pm »
I'm hoping for tonight's debate that Kerry doesn't ramble on about Chris Reeve's death. But I know he will.

hitman

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #248 on: October 14, 2004, 12:35:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
  Better a Flip Flopper than a Fascist
 
   
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  Germany = Flip Flopper
[/b]
or one that doesn't admit to being wrong, or can't use new information to change their mind.

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #249 on: October 14, 2004, 02:56:00 pm »
<img src="http://mulling.net/vpdebate.jpg" alt=" - " />

ggw

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #250 on: October 14, 2004, 03:16:00 pm »
What would the new information be?
 
 German pre-war intelligence was actually more dire than our own -- they estimated Hussein could have operable nuclear weapons within three years.
 
 Are you saying now that they know this assessment was wrong, they would be happy to send troops?
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by hitman:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
  Better a Flip Flopper than a Fascist
 
   
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  Germany = Flip Flopper
[/b]
or one that doesn't admit to being wrong, or can't use new information to change their mind. [/b]

hitman

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #251 on: October 14, 2004, 03:41:00 pm »
Wasn't referring to Germany, but to our current administration.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  What would the new information be?
 
 German pre-war intelligence was actually more dire than our own -- they estimated Hussein could have operable nuclear weapons within three years.
 
 Are you saying now that they know this assessment was wrong, they would be happy to send troops?
 
   
Quote
Originally posted by hitman:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
  Better a Flip Flopper than a Fascist
 
     
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  Germany = Flip Flopper
[/b]
or one that doesn't admit to being wrong, or can't use new information to change their mind. [/b]
[/b]

Barcelona

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #252 on: October 14, 2004, 03:49:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by ggw™:
  What would the new information be?
 
 German pre-war intelligence was actually more dire than our own -- they estimated Hussein could have operable nuclear weapons within three years.
 
 Are you saying now that they know this assessment was wrong, they would be happy to send troops?
 
   
Quote
Originally posted by hitman:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
  Better a Flip Flopper than a Fascist
 
     
Quote
Originally posted by ggw™:
  Germany = Flip Flopper
[/b]
or one that doesn't admit to being wrong, or can't use new information to change their mind. [/b]
[/b]
ggw, have you ever criticized Bush on this board or admitted that he might have been mistaken? Even The Economist has been critical of Bush (even though they supported him at the beginning). You should at least admit that there is a chance that this people were so eager to go to war against Saddam that they might have manipulated information to make the case. You deny this? Don't you see a chance that this might have happened?

ggw

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #253 on: October 14, 2004, 04:11:00 pm »
I've said that I'm not at all satisfied with the way Bush has run the war.  I think he should have listened more to Powell (If you go in, do it with overwhelming force) and less to Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz (We can get this done quickly and cheaply).
 
 But on the issue of Iraq possessing WMD, I don't think one can say Bush was mistaken unless one also says Kerry was mistaken, Al Gore was mistaken, Hillary Clinton was mistaken, the United Kingdom was mistaken, Russia was mistaken, Germany was mistaken, etc....
 
 The disagreement wasn't about whether Iraq had the capacity for building weapons. The disagreement between the U.S. and other nations was whether a military solution was warranted or whether inspections would keep him in check.
   
 I don't think there is evidence that he "manipulated" information.  Did he "spin" it?  Sure. I think the chances that Bush faked intelligence or suppressed contrary evidence so successfully that he not only fooled his domestic opposition but many foreign intelligence agencies also, to be highly, highly unlikely.
 
 The Clinton Administration believed that Iraq still had the capacity to build WMD.  As did non-US intelligence sources.  If you want to criticize everybody for being wrong on the intelligence that's entirely fair.  However, the practice seems to be to blame "Bush" alone.  If you want to blame Bush for being too aggressive or for not giving inspections more of achance, that's fair also.  But this whole "Bush lied about WMD" is a sham.  
 
 I could find several other things on which to criticize Bush.  The "Bush Doctrine" for instance, may well be the stupidest foreign policy ever enacted.  As Kerry pointed out, the U.S. always reserved the right to act alone and strike first if we felt it was necessary.  There was no need to put it down in writing and piss people off.
 
 I also think Bush has been spending too much money.  However, I chalk that up to first-term campaigning.  If he were to be elected to a second term (which I find highly unlikely) spending would come way down.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Barcelona:
 ggw, have you ever criticized Bush on this board or admitted that he might have been mistaken? Even The Economist has been critical of Bush (even though they supported him at the beginning). You should at least admit that there is a chance that this people were so eager to go to war against Saddam that they might have manipulated information to make the case. You deny this? Don't you see a chance that this might have happened?

ratioci nation

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Re: Frankensteins monster vs Someone who is not very clever
« Reply #254 on: October 14, 2004, 05:03:00 pm »
regarding first term spending
 
 http://www.cato.org/research/articles/rugy-030212.html
 
 
Quote
According to Chris Edwards at the Cato Institute, over the first three years of Bush budgeting, non-defense discretionary outlays will rise 18% â?? a number that far exceeds the spending increases during the first three years of the last six administrations. And it pales in comparison to the Ronald Reagan budgets. President Reagan restored America's military during his two terms, boosting defense outlays by 19.2% in the first term and 10.4% in the second. But Reagan also reduced non-defense outlays, cutting domestic spending by 13.5% in the first term and 3.2% in the second. That is real budget discipline.
 
 President Bush is also spending more than Bill Clinton. Clinton actually reduced non-defense outlays in his first term, albeit by only 0.7%. And, for all his flaws, he still signed market-oriented reforms such as NAFTA, farm deregulation, telecommunications deregulation, and financial-services deregulation.