930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: i am gay and i like cats on November 07, 2011, 09:58:36 am
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anybody shelling out some mucho money for the show. i said what the hell, my partner wants to go again. the seats on presale are not my choices, but where i am trying for is the best place to sit for a show like this: back 100s.
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but where i am trying for is the best place to sit for a show like this: back 100s.
How about on top of the wall?
Brian
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seeing how everything in life is, another brick . . . gladly.
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That last show in town he did was amazing. I'm down for another go, even at that price.
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anybody shelling out some mucho money for the show. i said what the hell, my partner wants to go again. we don't have any kids. we live in bumfuckville where the price of a house is affordable. you can only spend so much money on beer before you lose interest. the neighbborhood is safe as far as dc neighborhoods go. and we're both getting old so seats at a show are more inviting than standing in an overcrowded club show.
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anybody shelling out some mucho money for the show. i said what the hell, my partner wants to go again. we don't have any kids. we live in bumfuckville where the price of a house is affordable. you can only spend so much money on beer before you lose interest. the neighbborhood is safe as far as dc neighborhoods go. and we're both getting old so seats at a show are more inviting than standing in an overcrowded club show.
you deserve a sticker. that is about right. but i still like club shows. i like any show. could be worse . . . i could run for no reason.
oh no i didn't.
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Disregard... found it.
Also, partner, lolz! I hate when people call their sig. other, their partner. Quit it.
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link to presale and password if there is one?
Also, partner, lolz! I hate when people call their sig. other, their partner. Quit it.
if i was legally allowed in this country to call him my husband like everybody else who gets married and treated like a person instead of an idea that needs to be fixed . . . then i will quit. until then, my partner and i will surely enjoy this show, as partners.
on the tickets, you just need to sign up. it is free and i'm sure it is not too late. this tour will not sell like hotcakes last year.
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link to presale and password if there is one?
Also, partner, lolz! I hate when people call their sig. other, their partner. Quit it.
if i was legally allowed in this country to call him my husband like everybody else who gets married and treated like a person instead of an idea that needs to be fixed . . . then i will quit. until then, my partner and i will surely enjoy this show, as partners.
on the tickets, you just to sign up. it is free and i'm sure it is not to late. this tour will not sell like hotcakes last year.
You're talking about the AmEX pre-sale, correct? Partner.
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link to presale and password if there is one?
Also, partner, lolz! I hate when people call their sig. other, their partner. Quit it.
if i was legally allowed in this country to call him my husband like everybody else who gets married and treated like a person instead of an idea that needs to be fixed . . . then i will quit. until then, my partner and i will surely enjoy this show, as partners.
on the tickets, you just to sign up. it is free and i'm sure it is not to late. this tour will not sell like hotcakes last year.
You're talking about the AmEX pre-sale, correct? Partner.
nope . . . this one
http://www.rogerwaters.com/
did not know there was an amex presale . . . oooh, i wonder what seats you get with that?!
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I hate it when people care so little about their significant other that they abbreviate the word "significant".
Disregard... found it.
Also, partner, lolz! I hate when people call their sig. other, their partner. Quit it.
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Partner sounds so gay.
newsflash: you can get married in plenty of places.
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I hate it when people care so little about their significant other that they abbreviate the word "significant".
Disregard... found it.
Also, partner, lolz! I hate when people call their sig. other, their partner. Quit it.
FYAYF
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Partner sounds so gay.
newsflash: you can get married in plenty of places.
a piece of paper that says "you are married" and full rights that everybody else has that gets married, are two totally different things. like drinking odouls.
and i hate it when people shorten any words. all words should be spelled and said out. i blame twitter like that one famous person.
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Really? I've know more straight people than gay people who have used it. Even straight people who were legally married.
Partner sounds so gay.
newsflash: you can get married in plenty of places.
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straight people steal everything from the gays.
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Strai. people saying partner is 10x worse than homo. saying partner.
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Really? I've know more straight people than gay people who have used it. Even straight people who were legally married.
Partner sounds so gay.
newsflash: you can get married in plenty of places.
no way.
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Strai. people saying partner is 10x worse than homo. saying partner.
^this
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what about business partner . . . do you feel so strongly about that as well?
so i guess domestic partnership is out too?
what if roger is partnering with american express for this show. are you not going to go?
ok, now i'm just being silly.
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By the time gay people are allowed to marry (with all the perks) straight people won't be getting married no more..
Marriage is out out out this millenium.
Sorry to cut out of this riveting discourse but I got to take the kid to storytime at the library or my partner will be pissed off at me.
;D
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tell your partner hey for me . . . and say that yada hates them.
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(http://www.ohio-share.coxnewsweb.com/multimedia/dynamic/00520/ddn042409troutman04_520418b.jpg)
WTF is this thread?
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(http://www.ohio-share.coxnewsweb.com/multimedia/dynamic/00520/ddn042409troutman04_520418b.jpg)
WTF is this thread?
why people hate me.
yeah . . . i better get to work as well. have a wonderful day.
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most str8 people that i know who use "partner" do it out of solidarity with gays - either because they don't want to use wife/husband/spouse/etc until gay couples can, or they want to sow ambiguity around them and get people to question their assumptions - "why should everyone assume that every couple is hetero?".
By the time gay people are allowed to marry (with all the perks) straight people won't be getting married no more..
gays are always picking up heteros' cast-offs.
in europe no one is getting married anymore, so it's only a question of time until it takes its natural cultural flow: europe --> north american fringe --> north american mainstream --> gays.
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Back to Topic...
I wish DC got the ballpark stadium version. Although the show is indeed an arena thing, just to see a setup that is proportionately bigger with possibly enhanced lighting & effects would be quite a spectacle.
And....if the end of tour as currently written still stands, then Philly two days after DC is the place to be.
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Back to Topic...
I wish DC got the ballpark stadium version. Although the show is indeed an arena thing, just to see a setup that is proportionately bigger with possibly enhanced lighting & effects would be quite a spectacle.
And....if the end of tour as currently written still stands, then Philly two days after DC is the place to be.
Be careful what you wish for:
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/photos/gallery.jsp?content_id=25860222&c_id=phi (http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/photos/gallery.jsp?content_id=25860222&c_id=phi)
Brian
P.S. David Gilmour's in the Phanatic suit.
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Man, I bet gay couples are really going to be thanking these straight couples for their sacrifice when they finally get full marriage benefits. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!
most str8 people that i know who use "partner" do it out of solidarity with gays - either because they don't want to use wife/husband/spouse/etc until gay couples can, or they want to sow ambiguity around them and get people to question their assumptions - "why should everyone assume that every couple is hetero?".
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Yowch. The cheapest tix available in the presale is $146. Not sure what fees will go on top of that.
No thanks.
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Yowch. The cheapest tix available in the presale is $146. Not sure what fees will go on top of that.
No thanks.
like i said: it's a great show, totally worth seeing once, but at that price i don't think i'll be going a second time.
i was able to pull up $64.85 tickets for uppers.
fyi, that $146 price includes most fees. there is an additional $5 per order fee and a few bucks more if you want Ticketfast, but that's it.
Hardly the case...but with a bit of budgeting I can most definitely afford to spend a couple hundred bucks on something like this every once in a while.
there are $65 and $92 tickets, so it can be done.
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nope . . . this one
http://www.rogerwaters.com/
did not know there was an amex presale . . . oooh, i wonder what seats you get with that?!
The AmEx Preferred Seating (Gold, Platinum, or Black cardholders) is pretty good but not extraordinary. I pulled up some section 121s and some floor seats (middle of section 4).
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Got spendy tix from the roger waters presale. They don't tell you the exact location of the seats - just a statement that you're located somewhere between sections 1 and 6, rows A thru W - that's the entire floor!
"Your exact locations will be sent via email within 4-6 weeks."
Bogus.
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Why not? It's just once a year.
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Got spendy tix from the roger waters presale. They don't tell you the exact location of the seats - just a statement that you're located somewhere between sections 1 and 6, rows A thru W - that's the entire floor!
"Your exact locations will be sent via email within 4-6 weeks."
Bogus.
my apology . . . i really should have entered in my opinion about getting seats for this show a little more detailed. i do not believe that floor seats will be "that great" compared to most seats in the 100s, and this show pays to sit back a bit, up-angled. i just think the floor are too expensive, even if you got front row, which would be horrible for this size and scope of a production.
and i guess roger is ultra crackdown scaplers, with the not knowing your seats and pick up only for the person who buys them, day of. i like the suspense.
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Got spendy tix from the roger waters presale. They don't tell you the exact location of the seats - just a statement that you're located somewhere between sections 1 and 6, rows A thru W - that's the entire floor!
"Your exact locations will be sent via email within 4-6 weeks."
Bogus.
my apology . . . i really should have entered in my opinion about getting seats for this show a little more detailed. i do not believe that floor seats will be "that great" compared to most seats in the 100s, and this show pays to sit back a bit, up-angled. i just think the floor are too expensive, even if you got front row, which would be horrible for this size and scope of a production.
and i guess roger is ultra crackdown scaplers, with the not knowing your seats and pick up only for the person who buys them, day of. i like the suspense.
Having seen the show from very close on the floor (from RW presale seats last year), I'm excited to see it further back this time. Being very close was cool in some ways, but it was hard to take in the whole scope of it. I got Sec. 111 in the AmEx presale today and am very happy with that.
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that's where i saw the show from - 6th row of 111. i thought it was the perfect distance from the stage - far enough that you could take in the whole stage but close enough to see the details.
if i got floor seats, i would want to be in the middle of the floor. certainly not front row.
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Just curious, do you remember if people stayed seated along the sides, or were they standing? The floor was all standing from what I could see.
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Overwhelmingly a sitting crowd. Totally bummed me out. Even during "Young Lust" -- not only one of the more rockin and danceable tunes but also one that Roger hadn't played on previous tours -- the bulk of the audience stayed seated.
And not only a D.C. response; saw one other show, too. Same deal.
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Overwhelmingly a sitting crowd. Totally bummed me out. Even during "Young Lust" -- not only one of the more rockin and danceable tunes but also one that Roger hadn't played on previous tours -- the bulk of the audience stayed seated.
And not only a D.C. response; saw one other show, too. Same deal.
That's what happens to old and burnt to a crisp yuppies. These same people probably bitch at people for standing up at a rock concert.
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i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
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i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
Don't let anyone stop you and your partner from shaking your tail feathers, walkie!
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Do you insist on standing at the movies? the ballet? at the dinner table?
i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
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Do you insist on standing at the movies? the ballet? at the dinner table?
i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
yes . . . sometimes i go over the top and be all rudish and sneery, but really, come on; you are comparing a concert to those other events? but i do like your posts. i wish i could lick them. there, take that.
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i stood for portions of the show, as did some others in my section, when the music called for it. definitely got up and wobbled for "young lust". we were in the minority, maybe 1/10 of the section i was in stood up during the show. at times everyone sat down, like for "mother". definitely a sitting show overall.
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well you do sit for the most part at a sports arena regardless of what concert it is.
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I look at concerts as art perfornances rather than sporting events, bro.
Wish they all had seating.
Do you insist on standing at the movies? the ballet? at the dinner table?
i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
yes . . . sometimes i go over the top and be all rudish and sneery, but really, come on; you are comparing a concert to those other events? but i do like your posts. i wish i could lick them. there, take that.
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I look at concerts as art perfornances rather than sporting events, bro.
Wish they all had seating.
Do you insist on standing at the movies? the ballet? at the dinner table?
i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
yes . . . sometimes i go over the top and be all rudish and sneery, but really, come on; you are comparing a concert to those other events? but i do like your posts. i wish i could lick them. there, take that.
Burnt out, yuppie?
There's a time and place for sit down concerts... and that time and place is the Birchmere.
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Overwhelmingly a sitting crowd. Totally bummed me out. Even during "Young Lust" -- not only one of the more rockin and danceable tunes but also one that Roger hadn't played on previous tours -- the bulk of the audience stayed seated.
And not only a D.C. response; saw one other show, too. Same deal.
That's what happens to old and burnt to a crisp yuppies. These same people probably bitch at people for standing up at a rock concert.
A couple people in my section for the last show tried to stand up for songs other than the hits, and got thoroughly berated for it.
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Look at Yada, going all 1982 on us with the "y" word.
I look at concerts as art perfornances rather than sporting events, bro.
Wish they all had seating.
Do you insist on standing at the movies? the ballet? at the dinner table?
i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
yes . . . sometimes i go over the top and be all rudish and sneery, but really, come on; you are comparing a concert to those other events? but i do like your posts. i wish i could lick them. there, take that.
Burnt out, yuppie?
There's a time and place for sit down concerts... and that time and place is the Birchmere.
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Look at Yada, going all 1982 on us with the "y" word.
I look at concerts as art perfornances rather than sporting events, bro.
Wish they all had seating.
Do you insist on standing at the movies? the ballet? at the dinner table?
i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
yes . . . sometimes i go over the top and be all rudish and sneery, but really, come on; you are comparing a concert to those other events? but i do like your posts. i wish i could lick them. there, take that.
Burnt out, yuppie?
There's a time and place for sit down concerts... and that time and place is the Birchmere.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but in my many years of concert going experiences, it's always some entitled old white couple bitching at people to sit down at rock concerts.
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I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but in my many years of concert going experiences, it's always some entitled old white couple bitching at people to sit down at rock concerts.
Das Racist?
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(http://www.awesomemyspacecomments.com/1/funny/641.gif)
(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9509948.jpg)
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Oh my God, how much did I love Lynda Carter growing up?!
But I think you misunderstood me. The last time I was at a Das Racist show it was some entitled old white couple that told me to sit down.
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What I mean is that I haven't heard the word "yuppie" used since like 1987 or something. Figures someone who would have a problem with gays using "partner" would use it. ;)
I don't think I've been to an arena show since 1984 or so, so I'm not the guy telling you to sit down.
Look at Yada, going all 1982 on us with the "y" word.
I look at concerts as art perfornances rather than sporting events, bro.
Wish they all had seating.
Do you insist on standing at the movies? the ballet? at the dinner table?
i hate the whole sitting during shows thing. i like to move my ass all about. but if the majority of the crowd is sitting, then i do go along. except when i saw sonic youth open for wilco at dar. i was the only one getting down and fuck everybody else.
yes . . . sometimes i go over the top and be all rudish and sneery, but really, come on; you are comparing a concert to those other events? but i do like your posts. i wish i could lick them. there, take that.
Burnt out, yuppie?
There's a time and place for sit down concerts... and that time and place is the Birchmere.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but in my many years of concert going experiences, it's always some entitled old white couple bitching at people to sit down at rock concerts.
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What I mean is that I haven't heard the word "yuppie" used since like 1987 or something.
isn't that right about when you moved to the 'burbs, i.e. among the yuppies? ;D
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Moved in 2004
Let's see...one neighbor is an artist, another is a social worker, another a government worker, and a fourth has a off duty cab parked in his driveway. Hardly a yuppie neighborhood, at least not what i remember "yuppie" meaning.
What I mean is that I haven't heard the word "yuppie" used since like 1987 or something.
isn't that right about when you moved to the 'burbs, i.e. among the yuppies? ;D
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Moved in 2004
Let's see...one neighbor is an artist, another is a social worker, another a government worker, and a fourth has a off duty cab parked in his driveway. Hardly a yuppie neighborhood, at least not what i remember "yuppie" meaning.
What I mean is that I haven't heard the word "yuppie" used since like 1987 or something.
isn't that right about when you moved to the 'burbs, i.e. among the yuppies? ;D
Takoma Park or Silver Spring?
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guilty.. I use the term yuppie...
I lived in DC for close to two decades. No word better describes whats happened to 14 th street.. my god its just one yuppie after another... overpriced bars and restaurants (sushi anyone?)..oh yeah lets not forget the ridiculously overpriced furniture places.. and does anything say yuppie better than those "art galleries"?...valet parking... world bankers dining on the sidewalk... a shit show.... about as much personality as i got on my fingernail.
they're going to keep putting up bars and restaurants and expensive condos until its one giant yuppie wet dream..
bye bye great jazz (HR57)..by bye metro cafe bye bye Pulp ..bye bye District Garden.. in its place we get expensive condos, expensive restaurants... a place that sells overpriced beer to yuppies etc..
people are now paying $2000 for a junior one bedroom.. if those aren't yuppies i don't know what..
thank god for places like the Black Cat and Stetsons that manage to retain some sort of connection to reality.. not sure how long they will last.. oh and DC's best record store: SOM.
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uh oh time for everyone to move to Richmond ;D
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uh oh time for everyone to move to Richmond ;D
Redneck conservatives??
Give me yuppies all day long!
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uh oh time for everyone to move to Richmond ;D
Redneck conservatives??
Give me yuppies all day long!
uh oh time to move to Charlottesville ;D
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Springfield. Forgot to mention all the retired ex-military.
Moved in 2004
Let's see...one neighbor is an artist, another is a social worker, another a government worker, and a fourth has a off duty cab parked in his driveway. Hardly a yuppie neighborhood, at least not what i remember "yuppie" meaning.
What I mean is that I haven't heard the word "yuppie" used since like 1987 or something.
isn't that right about when you moved to the 'burbs, i.e. among the yuppies? ;D
Takoma Park or Silver Spring?
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bunch of yuppies in DC I tell ya...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2058705/DC-leads-list-shopaholic-cities-America--New-York-doesnt-make-ten.html
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thank god for places like the Black Cat and Stetsons that manage to retain some sort of connection to reality..
Reality is Stetsons is over-priced.
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thank god for places like the Black Cat and Stetsons that manage to retain some sort of connection to reality..
Reality is Stetsons is over-priced.
Don't write checks you can't cash mac: Stetsons offers dollar beers on Friday nights.
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thank god for places like the Black Cat and Stetsons that manage to retain some sort of connection to reality..
Reality is Stetsons is over-priced.
Don't write checks you can't cash mac: Stetsons offers dollar beers on Friday nights.
Whoops... From about 2002 until 2007, I spent probably 5k in wings and beer on Wednesday evenings at Stetsons... I also gained about 20lbs.
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thank god for places like the Black Cat and Stetsons that manage to retain some sort of connection to reality..
Reality is Stetsons is over-priced.
From about 2002 until 2007, I spent probably 5k in wings and beer on Wednesday evenings at Stetsons... I also gained about 20lbs.
Don't write checks you can't cash mac: Stetsons offers dollar beers on Friday nights.
um.. no... I can guarantee I'm the lightest person on this thread and have been consistently over the past 10 years... so no...sorry. try again.
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I'll take that bet ;D
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I'll take that bet ;D
Don't be ridiculous. you have no chance man.. no chance...
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thank god for places like the Black Cat and Stetsons that manage to retain some sort of connection to reality..
Reality is Stetsons is over-priced.
From about 2002 until 2007, I spent probably 5k in wings and beer on Wednesday evenings at Stetsons... I also gained about 20lbs.
Don't write checks you can't cash mac: Stetsons offers dollar beers on Friday nights.
um.. no... I can guarantee I'm the lightest person on this thread and have been consistently over the past 10 years... so no...sorry. try again.
That was a refernece to my fat ass, not yours.
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uh oh time for everyone to move to Richmond ;D
Redneck conservatives??
Give me yuppies all day long!
uh oh time to move to Charlottesville ;D
If I could make the same $$$ there that I do here, I'd move there in a minute.
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thank god for places like the Black Cat and Stetsons that manage to retain some sort of connection to reality..
Reality is Stetsons is over-priced.
From about 2002 until 2007, I spent probably 5k in wings and beer on Wednesday evenings at Stetsons... I also gained about 20lbs.
Don't write checks you can't cash mac: Stetsons offers dollar beers on Friday nights.
um.. no... I can guarantee I'm the lightest person on this thread and have been consistently over the past 10 years... so no...sorry. try again.
That was a refernece to my fat ass, not yours.
I see. Something seems to have gone wrong with the formatting..
Well its a funny thing.. no matter how much beer or wings I consume I can't gain weight...though I'd like to...
Stetsons was never my bar but its a good place and i've had some good times there.. I don't know they can last...
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I'll take that bet ;D
Don't be ridiculous. you have no chance man.. no chance...
oh really??? hmmmmmm ;D
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uh oh time for everyone to move to Richmond ;D
Redneck conservatives??
Give me yuppies all day long!
uh oh time to move to Charlottesville ;D
If I could make the same $$$ there that I do here, I'd move there in a minute.
trust me, you're not missing much ;D
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I'll take that bet ;D
Don't be ridiculous. you have no chance man.. no chance...
oh really??? hmmmmmm ;D
well I don't know.. are you like 4 feet tall or something? I'm 6"2 and I'm lucky to weigh 140 so....
I am what is known in the business as an ectomorph..
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I'll take that bet ;D
Don't be ridiculous. you have no chance man.. no chance...
oh really??? hmmmmmm ;D
well I don't know.. are you like 4 feet tall or something? I'm 6"2 and I'm lucky to weigh 140 so....
yeah we know, we all saw that pic you took with Pauly Shore ;D
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I'll take that bet ;D
Don't be ridiculous. you have no chance man.. no chance...
oh really??? hmmmmmm ;D
well I don't know.. are you like 4 feet tall or something? I'm 6"2 and I'm lucky to weigh 140 so....
yeah we know, we all saw that pic you took with Pauly Shore ;D
HEY.some respect jackie..that was Andres Calamaro!
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haha, I'm teasing ;D
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haha, I'm teasing ;D
WELL, its a sore spot.. the lemming who took the picture really messed up..half a second earlier I'd be standing next to Keith Richards...instead I got Pauly Shore.. if its any consolation I think he was high cause a joint was being passed around when I got backstage.. he sort of has a high look about him.. and being high can cause anyone to look like Pauly Shore..this is well known.
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although this DOES look like Pauly Shore..
oh shit..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XecYqccEoWw
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bye bye great jazz (HR57)..by bye metro cafe bye bye Pulp ..bye bye District Garden.. in its place we get expensive condos, expensive restaurants... a place that sells overpriced beer to yuppies etc..
HR57, metro cafe and district garden are gone?!?
THAT'S IT. I'M TAKING UP ARMS.
(seriously, i loved those places when i lived in that hood. dammit).
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Back To Topic...
Please someone tell me the connection of "cowbell" to Mr. Waters or THE WALL.
(And apologies to those boardies who are against any dissemination of a presale pwd in the forum.)
From email re Verizon show:
Roger Waters
Thursday, July 12
Verizon Center
Presale starts: Fri, Nov 11 at 10am
Presale ends: Sun, Nov 13 at 10pm
Use Password: cowbell
Public Onsale: Mon, Nov 14 at 10am
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Cowbell was featured prominently in Pigs (Three Different Ones).
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Will Ferrell insists on more cowbell ;D
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Finally pulled the trigger on this today... :o
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Finally pulled the trigger on this today... :o
when it is over, you will out of verizon, go over to some bar, order a nice glass of some good imported beer . . . and tell everybody--until they say shut the hell up--about the most incredible show you have ever fucking seen.
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Finally pulled the trigger on this today... :o
when it is over, you will out of verizon, go over to some bar, order a nice glass of some good imported beer . . . and tell everybody--until they say shut the hell up--about the most incredible show you have ever fucking seen.
Doubtful.
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then order an american beer. i hear founders is good.