The 2020 thread....

[hutch]

I am bored but I don’t understand the desire to blame Hillary for her loss...blame the voters or Comey but she did her part...trouncing Trump in the debates...running a fairly tight campaign with many fewer mistakes than trump’s which was a shit show...he went through like 3 campaign managers...and then when Comey reopens the investigation the polls shifted and she knew it which is why she closed in PA

But there is no getting through to you on this...you think:
She lost by very few votes and won the popular vote by three million but ran a terrible campaign (beating him in debates and way out raising him and with Democrats running the better nominating convention by far) Comey influenced nobody, and she lost in a huge upset cause the TV talking Heads told you she was winning and you assumed she would

I am sorry but you have just bought into conventional idiocy...

I am tired of talking about this..

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

I am bored but I don’t understand the desire to blame Hillary for her loss...

it was her race to lose, that voters were swayed by comey or bernie, maybe, but her campaign should have tried harder...I don't know what the solution was...but she spent $1.2 Billion (and yes I will conced, she probably would have had closer to 1.5 bill if sanders had dropped out in February...but that's not what happened)
I think they spent their money poorly and couldn't convice people who supported her to come out and vote.
not sure why that is up for debate, but it is

but ran a terrible campaign

I never said that, but proof is in the pudding

she lost in a huge upset cause the TV talking Heads told you she was winning and you assumed she would

This I think is the crux of my argument...people thought she would win, so the didn't feel the need to put the jacket on and wait in line, what's the point, she's a shoo in

I am sorry but you have just bought into conventional idiocy...

why does it always have to end up with and insult to the other person
I've yet to attack YOU in my argument, but you often go in "trump mode" and insult others that 'they are soooo freaking stupid, how you be such a dunce to believe that, only a complete dofus would have that stance'
I guess that's your brand, but it is getting tiresome

[nkotb]

Let's get this out of the way ...ZERO people on the board felt that way in November of 2016 (I can't speak for NKOTB)

Yeah, I mean...I didn't like HRC, but I'm not insane so of course I voted for her.  Still, I do genuinely think that while, yes, she would not be as grotesque as Trump, in the long run she'd wind up being worse.  Trump is by no means an outlier...this guy is the pure essence of conversatism made flesh.  But if we had another 4 years of bloodless corporate liberalism, I really think that whatever came AFTER would be way worse than Trump. That's what gave us this guy in the first place.

I am bored but I don’t understand the desire to blame Hillary for her loss...blame the voters or Comey but she did her part...trouncing Trump in the debates...running a fairly tight campaign with many fewer mistakes than trump’s which was a shit show...he went through like 3 campaign managers...and then when Comey reopens the investigation the polls shifted and she knew it which is why she closed in PA

Her job was to win an election and she didn't win.  Who else is to blame?!?! If she didn't inspire people that don't vote to show up, or who voted for Obama but were leaning toward Trump, or to campaign enough in swing states where the election is really won, the blame falls on the voters? I mean, yes there are factors she couldn't control once the campaign was in swing (the fact that Republicans have hated her with a passion for almost 30 years, the fact that she was under FBI investigation even if it was for a nothing reason, the fact that she's tied to Bill's bad record, etc.), but like...maybe don't put all of energy behind someone with so much baggage?

She lost by very few votes and won the popular vote by three million

I think this is the rub of it...she got more votes than the guy she ran against. It's just that she didn't get them where it mattered. I get that it's a dumb system, but hey, those are the rules and if you're not campaigning to get votes where they do matter, I don't see how the fault lies anywhere but with her and her campaign.

[Julian, Bespoke SEXPERT]

the fact that she's tied to Bill's bad record, etc.

Bill Clinton had the best Presidency of my lifetime and top 3-5 all time. He literally teabags Obama by every measure except how he made millennials feel as he passed virtually none of his agenda.

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

Bill Clinton had the best Presidency of my lifetime and top 3-5 all time.

well I guess there is room on Mt Rushmore then...that's a bit hyperbolic IMO

He literally teabags Obama by every measure except how he made millennials feel as he passed virtually none of his agenda.

I really don't know if the first part is true, but don't have the facts to back my argument

but the second...that is true
GOP has been a master at messaging...to their base and setting the agenda on so many topics. 
They are the propaganda masters and Libs just whine and fight with each other

Still, I do genuinely think ... in the long run she'd wind up being worse.
But if we had another 4 years of bloodless corporate liberalism, I really think that whatever came AFTER would be way worse than Trump.

dude, please pass that joint, because you are high as shit if you believe that...definitely helping Hutch's case with that argument

[nkotb]

This worries me. I get that Trump seems like a bad outlying blip on the radar, but I think what comes after is going to be much much worse. He's a total fascist scumbag, but there is certainly a lot of testing the waters shit going down.  How much will people take?

There was outrage about two stolen SCOTUS seats (including a rapist!), and sure some congressmen got yelled at, but everyone just accepted it in the end.

Sure, we're disgusted at child separation and horrified that some kids died, but beyond using #Resistance when we tweet and sharing articles about it while saying "THIS IS NOT NORMAL", it's still happening.

Rich are getting richer at the expense of actual working class people losing what little safety net they have, and no one is storming the gates.

I do think there's a game to see how far they can take it, and it's just given more leverage to whatever competent ghoul comes next. 

People are going to be more and more willing to accept fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" if they're not given a better alternative, and I don't think HRC and her ilk are that.

Still, I do genuinely think ... in the long run she'd wind up being worse.
But if we had another 4 years of bloodless corporate liberalism, I really think that whatever came AFTER would be way worse than Trump.

dude, please pass that joint, but you are high as shit if you believe that...definitely helping Hutch's case with that argument

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

This worries me. ... but there is certainly a lot of testing the waters shit going down.  How much will people take?

I really don't think that anyone in the Dem heirichy is thinking of using Trump's facist model...so not sure where you are going with that

There was outrage
we're disgusted
no one is storming the gates.
 it's still happening.

umm...isn't this what 2020 is all about.  I'm coming to the opinion that protesting in the streets doesn't do crap.  Problem is now there are SOO many things we're up in arms about their could be a protest every day and we'd still be missing things that are getting destroyed by team trump

Here is how we do it:
Get in power at the state and national level again and then work to make change
we can scream and post memes all we want...but they played the game right (albeit with some very shady tactics) and won.  We know the rules, play the game by the rules and if the people don't want it...then your message isn't being said well or the people really don't want it
In my heart of hearts I think that USA is way more liberal than the elections indicate...but we suck at messaging and getting the vote out.
If we could work on that...this minority majority will be sidelined
The GOP has mastered the tactic of getting people to vote against their own interest ....I don't think the Dem's...including Hill do that at all
The Dems have taken a lot of their constituents for granted, but they are not outright working against them (not in my opinion)

I want the candidates to state their case and platforms....but in the end it's ONLY about getting that fascist criminal out of 1600 Penn....and maybe into a Penitentiary

People are going to be more and more willing to accept fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" if they're not given a better alternative, and I don't think HRC and her ilk are that.

So again...you are pretty much sealing Hutch's case here and I cannot back your stance on this
Just because the GOP has been overtaken by Team Trump...doesn't mean that any Democrat...including Biden, has any intention on going the fascist route
are any of the 21 candidates doing fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" (well we do need to get better about complaining about the Trump Voter...as that's not going to help our case...see the deplorables incident)

[nkotb]

Sorry, I wasn't 100% clear. 

I don't think Dems will go full fash by any means, though I do think they'll be more and more willing to accept classism, racism, xenophobia to win over these mythical Republicans on the fence about Trump.

But right now, they're all beholden to corporate interests, are willing to forego their principles to avoid rocking the boat by seeming too left, and typically want to look for some tax credit, or debt refinancing or silicon valley tech solution to problems facing the masses. If they don't refocus efforts on helping their actual base and not whatever lobbying firm gives them the most money, I think voters are going to have an easier and easier time accepting the shit republicans are spewing. 

It's happening everywhere...this isn't some experience unique to the US. And unless Democrats accept that maybe they should change their approach, I think they're dead in the water.

So again...you are pretty much sealing Hutch's case here and I cannot back your stance on this
Just because the GOP has been overtaken by Team Trump...doesn't mean that any Democrat...including Biden, has any intention on going the fascist route
are any of the 21 candidates doing fascist scaremongering and demonization of "others" (well we do need to get better about complaining about the Trump Voter...as that's not going to help our case...see the deplorables incident)

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

they'll be more and more willing to accept classism, racism, xenophobia to win over these mythical Republicans on the fence about Trump.

this statement...
I don't think any candidate is running on "classism, racism, xenophobia"
even remotely
but the GOP is....so if they American voter likes those things...well then we are  screwed

also, I don't think we'll ever get Republicans (unless this whole presidency goes down Nixon style)...but it's the independent voter is the vote we want.
full on Republicans and those who lean...don't even make up 40% of the poulation
we need to reach out to those people and not worry about getting the Trump voter to turn based on some bombshell news story

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

Mayor Pete is still trying to ride this wave (and not doing a bad job...but there is a long way to go)

Maybe mayor butt-plug was more appropriate and space was right!

Booty-Judge Judy with Pete Buttigieg!

On the campaign trail, everyday Americans have been asking me, "How do you know if a guy has a grade-A booty?" That's easy: proportion. Do you see how each cheek is the same size as his head? That's good balance, the kind of balance I would bring to the White House.

spoiler...this is satire (it's from Dan Savage's site)

[sweetcell]

Booty-Judge

so last month... sheesh.

(it's from Dan Savage's site)

it's not savage's site.  the stranger is a seattle independent/alternative newspaper - actually, it was a newspaper, they have recently gone digital only (i can hear vansmack clapping already).  savage just happens to be their most known writer.

[nkotb]

I don't know. History has kind of proven that Democrats are willing to move center right pretty willingly to avoid smears that they're soft on crime, or for open borders, or communists, without ever getting smart enough to realize no matter what they do, they'll get the same smears.

I am with you about targeting Republicans.  They like 90+% approve of what Trump's doing...you aren't going to win them over, and there are maybe like 3 actual Never Trump Republicans out there in total.  Get those unmotivated voters and independents...I mean, those are the folks that came out for Obama's "hope and change" and then bailed when it turned out to not be true.

they'll be more and more willing to accept classism, racism, xenophobia to win over these mythical Republicans on the fence about Trump.

this statement...
I don't think any candidate is running on "classism, racism, xenophobia"
even remotely
but the GOP is....so if they American voter likes those things...well then we are  screwed

also, I don't think we'll ever get Republicans (unless this whole presidency goes down Nixon style)...but it's the independent voter is the vote we want.
full on Republicans and those who lean...don't even make up 40% of the poulation
we need to reach out to those people and not worry about getting the Trump voter to turn based on some bombshell news story

[nkotb]

Also:

Buttigieg is the only top 2020 candidate not offering staffers health care yet

It shouldn't be this hard, I dont' think!

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

^so again with the pointing guns at your own team....but I'm starting to think you are on the 'destroy the Democratic party team'

staff on campaigns are historically underpaid (if paid at all) and overworked...and I don't have a problem with that

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

there are maybe like 3 actual Never Trump Republicans out there in total. 

  lets be clear...these are elected officials who will do anything to keep their job...not voters

Get those unmotivated voters and independents...I mean, those are the folks that came out for Obama's "hope and change" and then bailed when it turned out to not be true.

So we are now smearing BO's time in office too, yikes

My stance is they bailed...but not for that reason...

I heard a great comment by Bakari Sellers on Maher this week
"the couch is always on the ballot"  and I 100% agree
we must make sure to get people motivated to get up off their ass and vote
I guarantee that if those three states got a do over
the trump vote would probably be exactly the same and the Hil vote would have gone up enough to close the gap
people were not that concerned that she would lose...and I blame the dems for not realizing that and really making strides to make sure that everyone knew that it was going to be razor thin and every vote counts